My thoughts on women in the church
September 22, 2006
This post will most likely be unpopular with many, if not most of you. It might even serve as a catalyst to some not-so-nice email. I’m OK with that. And though it may appear I am a glutton for torture, I am merely writing in response to a comment left by Karen on my last post. Here’s what Karen said:
Hi Amy,
I have visited your church and have seen some of what your husband believes about women’s roles (or lack of). I find it interesting that for all of your candor on this blog, you do not respond to the few comments on women’s rolls [here and here]. I think if you want this blog to truly reflect who you are, you could tell us what you believe. Are you afraid of loosing readers, or are you trying to project something you are not by omission, or am I totally wrong?
First, a few things…
- Because blogging does not provide the reader the advantage of hearing voice intonation or reading nonverbals, it’s hard to know in what “spirit” things are said. I’m operating from the assumption that your comment is a genuine interest in what I think on the subject and not a criticism of me or my husband. I hope you will read my response in the same way (except for the little bits of sarcasm that are sure to pop up here and there).
- Also, you’re right that I didn’t respond to Kathryn’s comments. I assure you my silence is not due to a fear of losing readers (my sporadic and lame posts have already accomplished that) nor am I trying to project something I’m not (I’ve been as real as I know how so far).
- The reason for my silence is twofold. First, Kathryn and I have gone back and forth on this issue already, both in email and in the comments of other posts on this blog (like this one and this one). As you can see, we don’t get very far. Second, my dad was just here for a little over a week helping us complete some much-needed home repairs and I was busy doing things like freaking out as I watched him climb the world’s shakiest ladder to switch out our bee-infested, paint-peeling shutters and finding time between naps, feedings and screaming children to paint lots of doors…garage doors, the side door, the back doors and the front door. In other words, I’ve been focused on other things.
OK, on with it.
Well, Karen, you said that you’ve visited our church and “have seen some of what your husband believes about women’s roles (or lack of).” Not sure what this means or what you’re referring to. There have been a whole host of rumors about what he supposedly believes about women, most of which are completely untrue, such as, “he doesn’t believe women should serve communion” (which, ironically, was included in a letter he received just today from someone who is leaving our church partly for this reason. How unfortunate that (1) they listened to and believed false information and (2) they either forgot about, overlooked or didn’t notice the women that have served communion on countless occasions in the past). Anyway, where was I. Oh yeah, rumors. My personal favorite was “he doesn’t want [so-and-so] to mow the church lawn because she’s a woman.” Now, I’ve gotta stop right here and tell you how much of a bum rap I’ve got as the pastor’s wife. For obvious reasons, as the pastor’s wife, I’m generally not “in the loop” (read: privy to the gossip). By the time I heard that my husband doesn’t think a woman should mow the lawn, that little morsel of juicy gossip had already made its way to the ears (and mouths) of a handful of otherwise intelligent people. I found it so hilarious I would have liked to pass it on myself. And to think, all that time and energy I wasted mowing our lawn. Bummer.
OK, so I digress.
Anyway, the following are my (abbreviated) views on women in the church:
Basically, of the dozens (if not hundreds) of roles to be filled in the church, I believe there are exactly two (read: two, dos, t-w-o, 2) roles in the church that should be occupied by men only. Those are the role of senior pastor and the role of elder. My view is based mostly on 1 Timothy 2:11-15.
Now, before I get bombarded with all the typical and inevitable arguments as to why I’m wrong in my interpretation of Scripture or why I’m a disgrace to all women everywhere, let me say that I probably won’t engage any (well-meaning, I’m sure) attempts to get me to change my mind. After much thought, conversation, exploration, study, etc., this is where I’ve landed on the subject. I haven’t come to this conclusion lightly and I don’t anticipate being convinced otherwise. (Although I’m always open to dialogue, differing opinions, hearing what others think and more questions.)
I find it very interesting how much heated debate transpires over this subject. I can understand, of course, that women don’t like being told they can’t do something. After all, I’m a woman. But why is it so threatening? I suspect it’s because women very often view the idea through the lens of abuse, heartache and betrayal. Indeed, the women I’ve known who have been vehemently opposed to my viewpoint, are all women who have been deeply wounded by fathers, husbands, brothers or other men who have wrongly hurt them.
I am certainly not in favor of women being abused in any way, by anyone. I do not believe women are in any way inferior or less valuable than men. Women have just as much to contribute in the church, business, politics and the world.
I’ve only scratched the surface, but it is now after 11pm and I have officially turned into a pumpkin. (I knew there was a reason I suddenly found myself staring blankly at the computer screen with absolutely no idea what to write next.) Besides, I’m sure I’ve provided enough raw material for some lively discussion.
And anyway, I’ve gotta go mow the lawn.
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58 Responses to “My thoughts on women in the church”
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September 22nd, 2006 @ 11:29 pm
You are Biblically correct and I think your explanation is very accurate.
September 22nd, 2006 @ 11:34 pm
Very interesting post amy, and I would say i never say (or heard!) any of those things about Brian or yourself while Keith and I attended Vineyard. Very sad the way rumors fly about and grow. And I completely agree with you in terms of your conclusion on the role of women in church/ministry. I believe the same thing.
JEN
September 22nd, 2006 @ 11:50 pm
Amy,
I have enjoyed reading your blog very much. I think we share the same kind of sense of humor.
September 23rd, 2006 @ 10:01 am
“By the time I heard that my husband doesn’t think a woman should mow the lawn, that little morsel of juicy gossip had already made its way to the ears (and mouths) of a handful of otherwise intelligent people. I found it so hilarious I would have liked to pass it on myself. And to think, all that time and energy I wasted mowing our lawn. Bummer.”
YES!! That is absolutely the best paragraph I have read all week long.
—–
I am going to post on this myself. That’s not begging for your readers to come visit me, that’s just because I know it is long
September 23rd, 2006 @ 10:22 am
maybe next week
September 23rd, 2006 @ 10:39 am
I”m with you— why did I mow the lawn all this time?? maybe because I enjoy being outside, and my spouse and I split up chores, and I chose that?
hahah.. just kidding…
excellent post, Amy..
September 23rd, 2006 @ 12:36 pm
Oh Amy, you deal with people very graciously!
Honestly, if someone has questions or criticism about your husband, they should go to HIM. I laugh under my breath (so that I won’t snarl) when people do that to me. Then I just say, ‘well, if you want to discuss this, you’ll have to talk to my husband. I can’t answer for him.’
And rumors……arrrg *snarl*…whoops, shoulda laughed.
I’m always last to hear things too! Why don’t people come to the source of their wondering/criticism instead of passing on half truths and hearsay. I’m telling you, as pastors and wives, we could probably sue for slander at least once a year if we chose to take things to court! (not that we ever would, but it’s been that bad sometimes!)
I guess this is one of the parts of walking humbly with our God that is so hard!
September 23rd, 2006 @ 1:41 pm
Amy,
I am all with you. I have gone one step further in believing that only a man can have the roll of being the chairman and vice-chairman as well as pastor and elder. If I wasn’t supposed to mow the lawn maybe I should count myself luckly that hubby bought a riding mower so I didn’t have to push mow everything. LOL
September 23rd, 2006 @ 3:40 pm
You have handled this situation with wisdom and grace. I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the role of women in the church. We can’t allow our culture to color the Scriptures. I appreciate what you’re doing! And why can’t people talk to the pastor about their concerns instead of everyone else? Don’t they know they’d get farther in getting their concerns addressed?
And so what if I DON’T like to mow the lawn or fix stuff–maybe I LIKE those “traditional” feminine roles of cooking, crafting, gardening, raising my own children, etc etc. Sometimes I think there’s reverse discrimination going on! People can be so silly sometimes.
September 23rd, 2006 @ 11:14 pm
Biblically, there is no such thing as the “role” of women or men. Ephesians 5 does not speak of “roles” at all, but relationships, which are a great deal more complicated. Men and women are told to submit themselves to one another (Ephesians 5:21). Deborah was a prophetess, judge, and supreme court justice. Huldah was a prophetess, the Woman of Valor in Proverbs 31 was a businesswoman, Priscilla was a tentmaker with her husband, Phoebe was a deaconness, and Junia was an Apostle. See what I mean? They were all women. Whose “role” did they all adopt? Deborah’s? Phoebe’s? This idea of gender “roles” is unrealistic. Who decided that cooking, gardening, and raising children was a “feminine” pursuit? Raising children had better be a joint pursuit, for their sakes! Who decided that mowing the yard or doing the checkbook was a “manly” role? These are cultural values, not Biblical teachings! Please don’t get those two confused. They vary widely from nation to nation. The patriarchal structure of so-called “complementarianism” is unscriptural and is based more on the “curse” of Genesis 3:16. I come from the complementarian South, and was raised as such, in a Christian home. My Dad was a wonderful father, but he was a Southern Baptist pastor, with all the complementarian theology. Forty years ago, comp theology was much more bluntly against women than it is today. I was saved as a child of eight. Also, as a child, I read the story of the great suffragist Susan B. Anthony. It was the first time I knew that the Bible had been used to deny women rights. It was also the first time I saw that Jesus sent women to tell men of the resurrection. God used that little school-library book-and His book-to begin me on the journey to Biblical equality through much prayer and Bible study. Complementarian marriages have a much higher rate of abuse than egalitarian marriages do, due in large measure to the heirarchal structure of comp. marriages.
September 23rd, 2006 @ 11:59 pm
Clarifications: Susan B. Anthony knew the Bible, and was able to answer her critics by pointing out that Jesus had women disciples, and sent them to tell His male disciples the news. I didn’t make that part very plain. Also, it is cultural values, not eternal truth of course, that change from country to country. It didn’t come out that way.
September 24th, 2006 @ 12:58 am
amy - while i don’t see exactly eye-to-eye with you on this, i feel compelled to interject a “you go, girl!” after all, i’m so fed up with people trying to convince me that really i am doing a disservice to the female gender by not wanting to be ordained that i’m entirely decided against pursuing an MDiv (i’m going for an MA) in seminary in large part to remove all doubt about my motivation. not that i still haven’t gotten in plenty of fights about it…
September 24th, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
Only thing I wonder after reading this post and its comments is that haven’t we christians learned a thing!? We are still using so much energy in debates between us christians that we stop showing the world the love of Christ! We should all appreciate each other’s opinions. The only thing we can’t compromise is that Jesus died for us and he’s the only way to heaven. I can’t deny any women there call to serve as pastors. I know that it’s very clear to ME that a man is the head of house. I find it very conforming. I also know that God hasn’t got very strick rules on many things because he looks at us through loving eyes and he knows that we humans just don’t get it!
I have a dear friend who might be considered “a loose woman” (read: very many men) and God uses her in reaching people.
I wish we christian would use more time showing Christs love to people around us than trying to make other christians think like that.
I was once told that i can’t be a christian because I’m such a messy person. Surely if God had cleansed me inside he would cleanse my outer being…
So many opinions but only one Jesus to combine us!!
September 24th, 2006 @ 3:03 pm
It says in the Bible that Jesus is the head of the Church and the Church is refered to as her and that man is to be the head of her meaning his wife. That did not mean for him to dictate because Jesus did not dictate. And to point out to Kathryn, there is only mention of Jesus choosing men to be Apostles and that the women and other men were followers of Jesus. Plus all the books of the Bible God had written through men.
September 24th, 2006 @ 4:37 pm
I’ve been checking back to see how long it took someone to mention Deborah!! The most obvious and most used choice of women in the Bible when trying to defend an opinion against what has been said here. Yes, she was a judge and yes she was a strong woman, but she was NOT God’s first and ideal choice for a judge for Isreal at that time. She made herself available and God used her (which should be the point of this story).
By saying a woman should not be a head leader / head disciplinarian is not saying that she is weak in anyway shape or form. It is NOT a slam against women or bringing them down or putting them “in their place”. There ARE different roles and functions but there is NOT a different value placed on a man verses a woman. They are equally loved in God’s sight - equally valued for their contributions to the Kingdom - equally important.
I agree with Amy about the 2 roles in the church totally and completely and it is based on Biblical teachings not cultural theology. But I add “Apostle” to that one… the actual word means sent one or messanger - those who legitimately function as an apostle are spiritual fathers to the church and last time I checked a father was a man.
Kathryn paints a very wide brush over a woman’s role (function) verses a man’s role in this life. What Amy is saying is that CHURCH governmental roles are to be held by men. No where does it say we can’t be Entrepreneurs like the Proverbs 31 woman or in ministry like Pricilla was with her husband.
A deacon is NOT a governmental role in the church according to the New Testament and therefore can be held by a woman or a man, it may be a governmental role in some churches in North America to maintain a charitable status but that is not what God intended it to be. The Greek root word for “deacon” literally means, “one who ministers or serves”, Phoebe was a “helper” in the church, not a leader.
Junias “was outstanding in the OPINION of THE apostles”, it doesn’t say she was an apostle but it says that the apostles held her in high regard as a preacher of the Gospel. An apostle is not a church governmental leader either.
Yes, woman played an enormous role in the Bible and still do in today’s society. We are in no way belittling them at all. And yes the church in days gone by has abused women by using Scripture out of context but we can’t go against how God first set up the church in the book of Acts because a fear of backlash or because of “women’s rights”. Paul was more of a liberator of women’s rights than anyone who came after him in modern America… hands down!
September 24th, 2006 @ 7:39 pm
Well said Shash!
September 24th, 2006 @ 8:17 pm
Kathryn…just curious where this info comes from
“Complementarian marriages have a much higher rate of abuse than egalitarian marriages do, due in large measure to the heirarchal structure of comp. marriages”
September 25th, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
Shash-excellent treatment of the topic!
Saying that we all just need to love each other and not talk about stuff like this sounds good, but as J.C. Ryle once said, “Your best friend is the one who tells you the most truth.” Truth must not be sacrificed on the altar of “love”. Truth must be spoken in love, true love, even when it’s difficult. I have a beautiful, complementary marriage. I am cherished by my husband as Christ cherishes the church. And my husband is even a Southern Baptist pastor- *gasp*! Who knew?!
September 25th, 2006 @ 6:59 pm
Abuse is not always physical. Sometimes it is psychological, and often it is theological. What if a woman in a complementarian church is called of God to serve Him in a way that her comp church refuses to allow because she is a woman? Complementarian churches require women to be less than what God intended for them to be. They require women to be under male authority. That is theological abuse. It is unscriptural. As someone said elsewhere, “Shared power is power less abused.”, or, as God said”, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:and let them have dominion…” (Genesis 1:26,&27). Shared authority.
September 25th, 2006 @ 7:25 pm
“And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel…” (Judges 4:4). Deborah judged and led all of Israel, not just the female half.
September 25th, 2006 @ 11:10 pm
The time of the Judges was dark, despairing. So often it says, “In those days there was no king in Israel. Every man did what was right in his own eyes.” Is this something we should emulate? I don’t think Deborah is the best example to follow for female leadership, just as Samson (over all) wasn’t the best role model for behavior. Israel was lacking, far from God, doing horrible things like worshiping idols. And there was Jephthah’s vow that required he sacrifice his own daughter (completely against God’s law).
I’m not sure what your definition is of “theological abuse” but it’s pretty obvious from all of Paul’s letters, esp. 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus that this authority or headship a man has over a woman is not to be abused in any way, but is to be one of servant leadership. Besides, EVERYONE is under some kind of authority: the government, the local church, bosses at work. Why do we react so emotionally when the Bible speaks of men having authority over women? God will not call someone to something (such as leadership in the local church) that is contrary to his Word. Period. If we have no standard of measurement in the Scriptures, then anything goes and we’re no different from our postmodern, feminist culture.
We cannot deny that men and women ARE different. They were intended to be and that’s not a bad thing. (Male AND female He created them.) Feminism tries to make women into men.
p.s. this is fun to discuss–i love the dialogue going.
September 26th, 2006 @ 12:22 am
Well said Amy. I always enjoy reading your blog. You often say things that i think, I’m just not eloquent enough to put them down on ‘paper’.
September 26th, 2006 @ 12:29 am
Men and women have different rules in life. I am no less then my husband even though he is the head of our house. There is no abuse in our relationship, we each bring something to our relationship. There are certain roles that he can only do and certain roles that I can do and that suits me just fine. I see that in my parents and grandparents relationships and they are all happy. Maybe if women stopped trying to take over the mens jobs in relationships then maybe the rate of divorce would go down.
September 26th, 2006 @ 5:59 am
I gew up in a church where our associate pastor was a woman… I personally do not see a problem with women serving in whatever capacity God has called them to.
Here is Russia a woman’s role in the church is pretty clear… she can do anything but preach!
September 26th, 2006 @ 6:17 am
Kathryn, I very much appreciate your passion on the subject. And while I disagree, I also respect your opinion. I struggle with your delivery though. Your blanket statements and negative implications about complementarians and complementarianism do not endear me to your cause. I assume your intention is to provoke thoughtful consideration of the egalitarian position, however, the manner in which you present your views accomplishes exactly the opposite for me. After all, if egalitarianism offers such happiness and freedom for women, why do your attacking statements only leave me with the notion that you are angry and bitter? Perhaps it’s a good idea to remember that while we differ in opinion, we share one vitally important thing: that we are sisters in Christ, both daughters of the King. Now that, girlfriend, is true freedom, no?
September 26th, 2006 @ 3:10 pm
one thing i think it is important to keep in mind in this discussion is that if the bible does call for men only in these church leadership roles, then there is no way that God is going to call a woman to disobey Him.
September 26th, 2006 @ 5:14 pm
Women can get called to do things in the church but I don’t believe that it is to be a minister or elder.
September 26th, 2006 @ 5:49 pm
It all comes down to a good question… Do you take God at His Word and line up your life according to it or do you try to make the Word line up with your life/theology? I strongly believe in “The Bible Plus Nothing ~ The Bible Minus Nothing”. It’s part of our church motto.
September 27th, 2006 @ 2:03 am
Amy, I’ve been reading Brian’s comments on other blogs, and I’ve got to say this: I don’t think you two are quite as complementarian as you seem to think you are. In fact, in my denomination (Southern Baptist), you would be called “liberal” and probably removed from fellowship for allowing women to “prophesy, cast out devils, speak in tongues, perform baptisms, lead worship” and some of the other things he has said. It does not sound as if there is much division of “gender roles”. You are much closer to the egalitarian view, so why not come on over?
September 27th, 2006 @ 2:16 am
Thank you Alida. Maybe the church in Russia will make that leap soon. Letting women preach just might change the world for Jesus!
September 27th, 2006 @ 7:46 am
Actually Kathryn, I think you may be more complementarian than you realize. Maybe you should come on over here.
September 27th, 2006 @ 8:15 am
This is getting nasty, it sounds more like name calling (with a hint of bitterness and offense)…
I’ve posted on this topic on my blog, come by and see what I’ve had to say.
September 27th, 2006 @ 9:27 am
Shash, alas, the unidimensionalism of the blogosphere strikes again…it’s hard to communicate intended goodwill in a post (or comment), especially when discussing a topic of such deeply felt emotion. I’ve tried to write my post and my comments with as much kindness as possible. In fact in my last 2 comments, I attempted to highlight the fact that while we may land at different places on this particular subject, as believers, we all still have much more in common than not. Nevertheless, I think you bring up a good point, namely, that caution must be taken when we “speak” to each other and while it’s certainly important to measure our words, it’s much more important to measure our hearts. Thanks for your reminder, Shash.
September 27th, 2006 @ 4:11 pm
Whether the particular gifts of speaking in tongues, etc. has ceased has nothing at all do gender roles. That’s a completely different debate.
And within the SBC churches, because they are congregationally ruled, there are many women who minister in ways other than preaching, such as women’s ministry, children’s ministry, music. It varies from church to church.
And I think that Jesus already IS changing the world with the gospel itself. I think it’s ridiculous to say that He needs women preaching from pulpits and leading churches to accomplish His purposes. Is God a man that He has need of anything?
September 27th, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
hi I am shash’s sister and I just read all these comments and I have an opinion…ya a woman with an opinion who knew hehehe! and I have a question
what is complementarian? or egalitarian? I have NEVER heard of these and I was raised in a Christian church!!
Our last church that we attended and left because we moved across the province, was PIH and was the most amazing church I have ever been too. Alf and Pam were the best literal examples of the Father’s Love then anyone my husband and I had ever met…EVER. He was the head pastor, but she preached too and together they really pastored the church. I love the saying the man is the head and the woman is the neck… you need a strong neck to hold up a head! we need each other totally. I think whatever role we are in better be one that God has called us to. period. There are many men who should NOT be in leadership and there are many women who should be and VICE VERSA! I believe that we should be where God has called us to be doing what we were called to do. Do I misunderstand scripture that says in Eph 4:11-12 “It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.” (NIV) is it just that this translation is incorrect or my understand of the orginal translation from Hebrew to English? when it says some does that mean men? then why is it ok for women to be teachers and not pastors? just curious and I totally get what you are saying about not being able to discern tone!! this is meant to be read as a question not a demand of my beliefs!!
For me I do think the “head” Pastor should be a man but believe women are called to pastor as well under that authority of the “head” Pastor. I also believe that we can be and are called to be apostles prophets too…..
September 27th, 2006 @ 4:48 pm
I’ve heard the complementarian argument that Bible women led only because there were no men available. It doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. Barak was more than willing to be the judge in Judges 4, and Jeremiah and Zephaniah were available at the time Huldah taught the Word to the High Priest. Why were women chosen instead of the men? The Word makes it plain that spiritual gifts are not given according to gender.
September 27th, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
“Complementarianism” is a view of the relationship between the genders that differs from gender “equalism”, in that it believes that both men and women are equal in status, but can have different and complementary roles.
I had never heard of this term either but it works for me…
September 27th, 2006 @ 9:18 pm
lala…I meant to define “complementarian” and “egalitarian” earlier but got distracted. Thanks Shash for your input. As you said, complementarians believe men and women were both created in God’s image and are equal in value but have distinct and complementary roles. Egalitarians also believe men and women are created in God’s image and are equal in value but don’t believe there are some roles better suited to one gender or the other.
September 27th, 2006 @ 10:19 pm
I grew up in the South as a Southern Baptist, and those complementarian churches make yours look like egalitarians. Women were not allowed to preach, evangelize, or baptize anyone. Southern Baptists to this day continue this practice. Most do not even allow women to lead in prayer. Sad to say that Deborah would not have been allowed to follow her God-given calling in a complementarian church, nor would Junia the apostle. Deborah pastored a whole nation! Yes, there were men available. As I said above, judging by Brian’s comments you are much closer to egalitarianism than compism. There doesn’t seem to be much strict gender-role enforcement in your church. Good for you!
September 28th, 2006 @ 12:17 am
Kathryn it is sad that women were not allowed to preach in the church in the south, religion has made a lot of legalistic rules instead of building relationships. But again I try to emphasis the point here… a preacher, evangelist or a person who baptizes anyone is NOT a church governmental position so why keep throwing these things back at us. You have missed the point of the post and keep trying to argue your view and obvious ill feelings/offense towards Brian. There seems to be no point in having this conversation with you. You keep going over the same things, using the same women as examples… Junia was NOT an apostle, please read your Bible again and the above comments explaining this. She was a “preacher of the Gospel” and was held in high regard BY THE APOSTLES. And as for Deborah… you must have also missed the part of Scripture that says that there were NO MEN QUALIFIED TO RULE IN THE AREA. Plus immediately after Deborah’s rule… Isreal fell BACK into sin again, what quality of leader is that? That she did not raise up a leader to take things further and better than she did? Her good rule over Isreal ended with her and that is not a success but a failure. Really… this going around in circles is not benefiting anyone and it’s becoming a useless argument which the Bible ALSO says to stay clear of as believers.
September 28th, 2006 @ 12:25 am
I’m sorry but there are certain roles that only a women and only men can have. A man can not be a mother to his or anyone elses children and a women can not be a father. Those are roles that God created and are gender-specific.
September 28th, 2006 @ 12:40 am
Did you know that the word “helpmeet” in Scripture actually means “power corresponding to” or “authority corresponding to”, and is a picture of Genesis 1:26, and 27 in which God gave male and female equal authority over His creation? No male rule there! Genesis 3:16 says that that is the curse.
September 28th, 2006 @ 12:41 am
If we had more women in authority, maybe we wouldn’t get into the messes we get into as a nation.
September 28th, 2006 @ 3:26 am
Wayne Grudem won’t tell you this, but wife and mother are not roles, they’re relationships. Husband and father are too. There’s a big difference between roles and relationships. I was raised in a world where gender roles were emphasized. Roles are like a cake recipe: a cup of this, a cup of that, the right ingredients, bake and presto! you have a cake each time. Same outcome every time. Relationships are a great deal more involved because of the differing personalities of each person. It is at this juncture that I find the idea of “roles” repugnant. They deny the individuality of each person. You and I do not have the same roles in life just because we are women, even if both are married and have children. Yes, we are women and I wouldn’t have it any other way. We have certain things in common because we are women, but we are also different and not just in theology. Ditto for men. If Brian’s church lets women preach, baptize, lead worship, evangelize, and other things he says, they are almost egalitarian! The strict gender roles are almost non-existent. They are definitely not in the tradition of Southern Baptists! Each woman in his church is gifted differently from the other women.
September 28th, 2006 @ 7:00 am
hooley dooley!
have just stumbled up on your blog… and what a can of worms has been opened I see
Amy, May God strengthen you and uphold you and guide you deeply in His wisdom. May you stand as a rock beside your husband, and not be moved from where God has placed you both! Amen
September 28th, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
Kathryn I disagree with you. From my observations in the church that I attend, most of the problems that our church has had in the past and even now, have mostly been caused by women putting their noses in situations that they did not belong. Women are also more emotional then men where men in most cases are calm. I’ve seen this not just at church but in other areas of life as well. Actually being a wife and mother are roles, God given roles. You do not need a relationship (a wife) to be a mother.
September 29th, 2006 @ 8:40 am
Kathryn just a few more thoughts. I don’t believe there is anything scripturally wrong by saying that there are different roles that a man and woman play. The Bible is full of patterns for us to pay attention too. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in divinity but we see a pattern of authority emerging when Jesus says “nevertheless not my will but thine be done” regarding direction given to Him by the Father.
We also see it further when Jesus said I’m going now but I’m going to send the Comforter (Holy Spirit) in reference to His ascension to heaven. Did Jesus feel like He was any less divine, valued or important because He was sent to model before us what He saw the Father doing? No. Was it a different role and responsibility than what God the Father had? Yes. There isn’t one New Testament scripture where we see Jesus usurping the authority of God the Father. In Heaven there is a definate pattern of authority and on earth there is also.
There’s an old saying that goes like this “anything with two heads is a freak”. The Bible says in Ephesians 5:22, “Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands (but don’t forget the next part) as unto the Lord.” But before any man gets s big head over this he needs to remember that the previous verse says to, “Submit to one another in the fear of God”. What does submit mean? It doesn’t mean to dictate or lord over someone but to “come under the mission” of another. A husband and wife are part of a team working together but God has given each a different mission or role on that team. Something that only they can do to bring success to the team mission. Is either more valuable because one is the designated leader and the other the follower. No. Verse 25 is the qualifier for being the leader, “Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her.” That’s a huge statement and responsibility that is placed upon men. Husbands or Church leaders are not to lord over people but to lay down their lives for people.
As one of many female leaders in our church but not the “final authority” I understand that the people are not there for me but I’m there to lay down my life for the people. I can submit to my husband because: #1. That’s what God wants me to do and #2. He has and is learning what it means to lay down his life for me.
A couple of years ago at the Promise Keepers rally in Washington the leader of N.O.W. The National Organization of Women got up and made some really sad and untrue comments about the motives behind this rally. I heard another Christian woman who is a preacher say “Her problem is she has never had a man in her life who has kept his promises.”
So whether you have a husband or Church leadership that has or hasn’t kept promises it doesn’t matter because God has kept His promises to you.
The one big thing that everybody seems to keep missing is that our value doesn’t come from what we do but from who we are. No matter what I do at work or home or in the Church it does not affect my value. I’m a child of the King whether I’m cleaning toilets, working in the nursery or preaching from the pulpit on Sunday. When our value or self worth comes from what we do then we are always trying to do or have more. One of the first questions we seem to ask new people when we meet them is, “So what do you do for a living?” What a shame. It’s understanding my value in God’s eyes that allows me to serve others because that’s what He did.
September 29th, 2006 @ 5:53 pm
Oh my! This has got to make you TIRED! *sigh*
Ok, you have a lady in your church that WANTS to mow the church lawn?
Hallelula!
September 29th, 2006 @ 9:59 pm
Complementarians, under the guise of “celebrating gender differences”, have taken those differences and used them as a weapon against women for centuries. We can “celebrate” without doing that. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you will teach your children to stand against prejudice and for love as demonstrated by our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Anointed One. Whether it is prejudice against people of another race, “a woman’s place is in the home”, or that people of another religion are all terrorists, prejudice is a sin against people, and ultimately a sin against God, who made all in His image. Please teach your kids about the destructive power of prejudice. Help them to read about Southern segregation, Martin Luther King, and the struggle for civil rights. Or, read about Susan B. Anthony and the struggle for women’s suffrage. Study the theological underpinnings of prejudice in our country, and the theological underpinnings of the Civil Rights movement and the suffrage campaign.
September 29th, 2006 @ 11:28 pm
In the above comment, I mentioned the Civil Rights movement, and woman’s suffrage. A good place to begin your study would be a book entitled Woman Be Free by Patricia Gundry, or Letter From A Birmingham Jail by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
September 30th, 2006 @ 2:02 am
This has to be one of those issues where people may have to just agree to disagree.
Can’t we all just get along?! LOL
September 30th, 2006 @ 2:32 pm
Why do women get so stuck on the title thing. We are all called to fulfill the great comission and bring the gospel to the world. What does it matter whether I do it as a secretary in a little town or a preacher in a church?
I will admit I got all hung up on this a time or two in my life… but now to me it’s a fruitless arguement… distracting from the main purpose of telling people about Jesus.
jsut me thoughts. Good post Amy
September 30th, 2006 @ 7:44 pm
*sigh* the fifty third post about the subject that whole BOOKS have been written about. Helpmeet: a helper suitable. When my son helps me make cookies, is he reading the recipe, measuring everything, getting the hot cookie sheet out of the oven? Nope. He’s my HELPER. There’s a logical difference here that can’t be denied. And there is nothing abusive or wrong or prejudiced in saying that a wife is a helper to her husband. That kind of language just inflames emotions (we women are so emotional, aren’t we!). How tiring that feminism has so infilterated the church that women buck up against any claim that appears to take their “rights” away. (And by the way, the time of the Judges was terrible and dark…and God never put a Queen on the throne of Israel.
October 1st, 2006 @ 12:35 pm
Hi Amy,
Great post and well-balanced. I have been reading your blog for a while and I enjoy your thoughts and the way you handle yourself.
This whole issue really makes me heart-sick. There is abuse on both sides and I think you really nailed it when you made the comment about people having trouble with some of these things due to abuse. That means that we should be compassionate and understanding and I am glad to see you doing these things. There are some on our theological side of the fence who are not so understanding or compassionate and they are very dismissive.
I think it would also help if some (not you) would drop the stereotypical comments. I have seen church situations handled by men and it was not pretty. Talk about EMOTIONAL!!!
We, as sinful humans, are tempted by our emotions all the time. I am not the typical “emotional, hysterical” female so these sorts of whitewashing of a whole gender is not helpful to me as a woman who does see that the Bible teaches that elders/pastors are to be positions held by men.
I, the lump of clay, will not argue with the Potter on what He made me for. I will also not go looking for “reasons” why He does things because anecdotes really don’t help the argument. I know many godly, intelligent, theologically-minded females who do not allow their emotions to dictate their behavior. All we have to do is take a look at the happenings around the blogosphere to see that it is not only women who cause problems and get emotional.
Thanks again for your excellent post.
October 1st, 2006 @ 7:06 pm
If Barak is a coward, as some complementarians claim, why is he mentioned as a person of faith in Hebrews 11? It took a lot of courage for him to do what he did, and to submit to the leadership of a woman in that time,(once he finally did),while knowing that he had lost the honor of capturing Sisera, the enemy general, to another woman. The land had 40 years of rest because of Deborah. The Israelites’ problems did not stem from having women leaders (Deborah, Huldah, etc.); they stemmed from their failure to destroy the Canaanites from the land, as they had been commanded by God to do (as hard as that is to understand) in Deuteronomy 7:1-4. The people were exhausted when they entered the Promised Land. They were tired of fighting, so they decided to settle down without eliminating their neighors (Thank God, we have the Holy Spirit to dwell in us today, and are not to do as they were commanded on this!). The people would get caught up in heathen practices and pagan worship because of their neighbors, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and others. They would straighten up because of the judges and prophets, then they would get back into trouble again. That happened with all the judges, not just Deborah.
October 8th, 2006 @ 9:52 pm
Why are you all talking about women’s roles? I thought the question was about women’s ROLLS?
Want my view? Pillsbury can’t be beat!
October 16th, 2006 @ 9:28 pm
That was such a great answer, especially from a pumpkin!
April 10th, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
Why can’t we stop discussing God’s image in female as if she was some sort of oddity? Can she do this? That??? How about this? How about if she sits? Stands? Stands way over there? If she wears a hat? Come on people of God! It’s the church age! Let’s get busy with the Lord’s work and stop letting Satan distract us from our COMmission!
Are we living in the Spirit? Can’t we rise above the flesh? We are called to! Come on! Let’s stop this foolishness.
Love In Jesus,
Karen